Guest: Jody from Guruphiliac, @Kalieezchild on Twitter
The dirty secret of spiritual enlightenment. The problem with gurus. Rolling your own religion. Dreams and the unconscious in spirituality.
Music by Martin H Emes plus “Cycles” by Density & Time and “Soveja” by Minus (CC BY-SA 3.0 RO).
Ready for part 2?
Transcript
Opening
Jeremy: I’m Jeremy. This is Now or Never.
Before I really introduce this episode, it would feel weird not to address the elephant in the room. Of course I’m talking about the COVID-19 pandemic that is now beginning to spread rapidly across the United States and is already spreading across the world and is hitting some countries especially hard right now.
This episode was recorded before it had really entered public consciousness too much in the United States. So we don’t really talk about it at all, which I think would feel kind of weird if I didn’t address it. At the same time, I don’t really know what to say about it.
I think there’s a general sense that we’re on the edge of something, some change. There’s the virus itself and what may happen with our underprepared medical infrastructure, our facilities. There’s watching what’s going on in Italy, what’s going on in Iran, what has been going on in China, and feeling like that’s on the horizon for us. It’s kind of foreboding.
The economy is in a scary place right now. And if you are of the collapse-minded persuasion, you may be looking at all this and you may be suspecting that there’s no going back to normal after this, that we’re not just going to magically return to business as usual in 18 months.
I don’t know how this is all going to go. I’m curious how this might bring some people together in a strange way. How it might open some eyes to how quickly normality can shift. How things that seem unshakeable can topple.
Whatever you’re feeling right now, that feeling is shared by many people. That feeling can begin to draw us toward eachother. I think there’s a kind of really beautiful kinship that can form when something like this is shared. And I know that’s hardly consolation for anyone who’s been laid off because of this, or who’s lost someone they love because of this or may lose someone they love or is just gripped by anxiety, grief, or panic, or whatever you’re going through.
I don’t really want to offer platitudes. I’m not a huge fan of platitudes. I’ve heard a lot of htem. I don’t know that any of them have ever made me feel any better. But I’m flashing back to what Kim said in the last episode, the “what can I do now?” What can I do anyway in the face of something like this? And if all we can do is listen, at least I can offer that much.
Human beings are social creatures. We naturally come together to share burdens like this, to share traumas.
I want to encourage anyone to reach out. You can give us a call, leave a message anytime at 844-916-1669. It’s a toll-free number. You can join us on our Discord community. Links on the website, ItsNowOrNeverPodcast.com. Send us an email, mailbag@itsnoworneverpodcast.com. Twitter.com/NowOrNeverCast. I’d like to plug the Collapse Support subreddit, reddit.com/r/collapsesupport.
Okay.
Despite having basically nothing to do with any of that… It’s Now or Never, Season 2 Episode 6: Enlightened As Fuck with Jody the Guruphiliac.
In this special two-parter, we’ll talk about the dirty secret of spiritual awakening, the problem with gurus, the folk theory of enlightenment, rolling your own religion, magick and imaginal spirituality, the unconscious, dreams, and burnt almonds.
I’m really excited about this episode. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do.
Conversation with Jody
Jeremy: How would you like to be introduced?
Jody: Mmm, as a … somebody who started a blog called Guruphiliac that criticizes spiritual gurus for promulgating unhelpful ideas about what spiritual realization is.
I’m critical of the idea that spiritual realization is anything divine. And I see gurus as a primary source of that idea in the landscape of spiritual enlightenment culture. So I go after gurus for that reason. You know, I came up with that blog it pissed a lot of people off at first. But you know, there’s been a movement now that’s happened a lot of different places from a lot of different people to be more critical about spiritual leadership and to recognize spiritual authoritarianism, which is basically how a lot of these gurus operate. At least in my opinion.
Jeremy: Well, it’s a hell of a hobby,
Jody: Yeah. A vocation. And I describe it as a vocation.
You know, just expressing the idea that there’s a lot wrong with how spiritual enlightenment is described. And some of that wrong has to do with the fact that gurus can take advantage of those ideas to present themselves as sources of, essentially, magical happenings in people’s lives. And it’s all based on a kind of landscape of ideas out there in spiritual enlightenment culture that I’d been calling the folk theory of enlightenment. And so this set of ideas is the way people understand and communicate about spiritual enlightenment.
Every single idea about spiritual enlightenment is wrong because it’s about a non-conceptual aspect to your awareness. It can’t be expressed in ideas. We can only communicate with ideas, the result being that there is folk theory of enlightenment. The problem is all of these ideas distract. They take your attention away from what’s true about your awareness in the moment in front of you because you’re thinking it’s something else.
So I kind of started criticizing gurus primarily for the reason that they claim to be divine, that there’s some kind of special divine character imbued with special divine powers because they’re one with God or one with the universe. And, you know, it’s a really ridiculous notion when you think about it, but that idea gives people permission to believe that gurus can help them magically. The magic is in the people that believe the guru is magic. When we start thinking about something imaginally we kind of can give it a life if we’re sincere in our belief in application of it. And the gurus can take advantage of this because then they can be the source of that inner magic, let’s call it. That is really something that exists despite the guru.
Jeremy: Oh, that’s awesome. There’s a lot to unpack there. Let me just say, I’m super stoked to be talking to you about this. I’ve been going back and reviewing some of your Guruphiliac posts and tweets and social medias of all kinds. And I just, I have a ton of questions. I did promise one or two people in our Discord chat for the podcast that I would ask you if you personally are or would claim or would even use the language of being enlightened or awakened yourself or if that’s something that makes sense to you.
Jody: Yeah, yeah. It’s a sticky question, you know? It doesn’t make any difference. But basically, anyone that says they’re enlightened is always just a person saying they’re enlightened. Right? There’s nothing divine or magical or really different or special about it except for the fact that, with the faculty of your attention, you’ve recognized something in your awareness, something that’s always existed in your awareness. Something that’s kind of always there, but it’s non-conceptual. It can’t really be talked about. I mean, I have that experience. But I can only just be somebody telling you I have that experience. There’s no way to prove it. There’s no way to demonstrate it.
People think they have these criteria. Well, he’s, one with God or he’s one with the universe. I think both of those ideas are bullshit. It’s really just recognizing something that’s always present in your awareness and it’s something that happens via your attention, I believe. And that’s why I think simple meditation is really helpful. I mean, there’s a lot of advantages to meditation, but I think ultimately it’s really about developing your attention and kind of giving it some additional capability that would help you discern that aspect of your awareness that’s always been there, right? It’s always been there. It’s like, how do you see something that you’ve never not been seen. And, uh, it’s tough, I think, but with a simple meditation that can really help. And then also it was a little bit luck involved.
So to answer your question, I’d have to say yes , but with the understanding that it doesn’t make me any different than anyone else. I’m a graphic designer. I mean, I like to do normal stuff. Well, maybe not totally normal to everyone, but…
Jeremy: Yeah.
Jody: It doesn’t make a difference. I mean, there’s a helpful aspect to it but… I mean, this is sort of in this same thing I’ve been afraid people are going to ask me, ’cause it was much easier to not have to answer this question. But yeah, I have to make the claim that I’m, I’m working with what’s in front of me. So take it or leave it, right?
Really, there’s only three choices: I’m either deluded, which really, honestly, I think a lot of my friends think I’m deluded. Or I’m lying. Right. You know, I’m saying it to be cool, which is something I’ve tried to do my life, be cool. So, you know, it wouldn’t be totally yeah. But no, no. The third one is, yeah, I am seeing something that does equate to these concepts that we throw around about enlightenment, realization, et cetera, et cetera, so… Yeah. I guess that’s my answer to that question.
Jeremy: So then my followup question would be: do you want to be a guru?
Jody: No. No. A source of information, maybe you know, and something to check out. But I’m just one of many. There’s a lot of different approaches. I really honestly believe that you make up your own path, and, you know, even if you’re believing everything your guru-by is believing too, you’re still on your own path. Right. It’s still a subjective, completely subjective experience, really. So, um, Yeah. No, I don’t. I don’t. I like expressing these ideas, though, definitely. Because I think it’s important.
I think the whole problem is the frame, the way we frame enlightenment. And you know, it’s something up there, like higher is better as a huge metaphor that helps us to quote “understand” unquote enlightenment. this traditional way of framing it that’s come from Buddhism and Hinduism and primarily and maybe little Christian mysticism in there , this “being one with God” idea or “being one with the universe,” it’s just basically created tremendous distraction. That’s what these gurus are doing by using these folk theories .
It just, it’s always made me mad, you know? I mean, maybe I’m not enlightened. I mean, that would be a reason for people to believe I was not enlightened. Because I will say honestly, that it makes me angry. It’s like, it’s bullshit. And that’s sort of the emotional place I’m reacting from in a way is one of anger and frustration. So yeah, maybe I’m not enlightened. But that’s the truth of it.
Jeremy: What is it about guru figures or people who set themselves up as gurus that causes you so much anger or it brings out such a response in you where you want to start a blog like Guruphiliac and call them out on it?
Jody: That’s a good question. You know, and I don’t know if I have a good answer for it. It’s just wrong. You know, it’s just wrong.
I mean, if you buy into a more biological frame to describe realization and alignment, it’s a neurological phenomenon. And it involves, in my opinion, your attention and what your attention can pick out about your ordinary awareness. You know, in your perceptual envelope, that sort of spectrum of experience that you have inside and outside. The world, you, your feelings. They take that really simple thing and just blow it up into all this mysticism and power and special-ness and worship. You know, one of the things that drives it is the worship works. You can take any guru real or fake. And if you really believe that guru represents God for you, then boom, it’s gonna work. That’s why they’re so successful. It’s the way human beings respond to having those ideas.
Those gurus have a tremendous responsibility, you know, public figures of spirituality, in my opinion, and that’s to convey what enlightenment really is. If you really do see what realization is, at least in the terms of Vedanta, then all that other stuff goes away. But gurus use these ideas because that’s what sells. You know, people want to be happy. So gurus offer happiness, really. And realization is very helpful to aid in your finding happiness. So, you know, there’s a connection there. But really it just becomes this emotional salve and you know, the gurus is the space daddy and oh, you know, just keep your troubles to me child, and I’m going to make them all better because I’m a guru and I’m one with God.
You know, that’s a pretty unsubtle way of describing it. And it’s a lot more subtle than that in a lot of cases. And I’ve been around it when, when people have had those feelings and I’ve just never seen them in those same situations… You know, what I’ve seen in front of you as a human being that, you know, happen to have this skill, this ability to see who they really are, or to see this aspect of their awareness that provides the feeling, the source of identity, the source of one’s feeling of existing in the world.
Evolution hasn’t had a reason for this attentional skill to exist. And were a more basic and simple frame, one that sort of was free of all the mysticism and all the holiness and being special, et cetera, if it just became something very normal there’d be a lot more of it.
There needs to be more normal and mundane examples of what it is, really. By putting it on this pedestal, by making it something that was higher and better and not where you are right now, you’re essentially misdirecting attention. I really think they’re wrong to do this. Perhaps not all of them know it, you know? Some of them are perhaps just being faithful to what they believe.
But… You know, here’s the big bugaboo of it. It does help. A lot of people are helped by this because of the way the human responds to these ideas. You know, the imaginal response, it makes people feel better about themselves. Organized religion, horrible, in so many ways. But individually, people feel better about themselves. They feel better about the world, and there’s no getting around that. It works. Religion works. That’s why people go to these gurus and they don’t have to be real at all. They just have to look the part and say the things that people are expecting to hear about it, mostly derived from folk theory of enlightenment. That’s it. And by those gurus doing that and providing that show , those people feel better about themselves and give them the money. I mean, it’s a pretty airtight business once you’ve established yourself there.
I dunno, I just think it’s wrong. I’m an activist, right? I haven’t really thought about myself that way, but I guess that’s what it is. It’s a kind of activism. It’s like, Hey, people, look at these guys. Look at what they’re saying and see how it’s a distraction. You know, they’re talking about something that’s always right in front of you all the time. It never leaves you no matter where you go or what you’re doing. It’s always right there. It’s not somewhere you have to get to. It’s something you have to notice. And that’s really the main differences between these two frames? You know, the biological frame is it’s something you notice that’s the biology already? You notice it and then there’s this other frame, this older frame that, oh no, it’s something you get to after you’ve passed the seven octaves of your chakras and you’re at your highest vibration and you’re purest and you’ve transcended and you’ve ascended, et cetera, et cetera. You know, this metaphor of going up and being higher and purer, et cetera. That’s one way of framing it. That’s the old way of framing it. What I’m trying to communicate is the idea that it’s something you notice in front of you right now. It’s that simple. Now, how to get there is very difficult maybe. And I don’t think there’s a lot you can do to help someone and, I will say this, I have to be honest, I think the devotional path is a great way to pass your time until this attentional skill develops.
I think people join calls because they’re looking for some kind of support and I think a lot of people can be helped by it initially. But I think that ultimately you find your own way to this recognition, this attentional skill. It’s not some magic that’s done by somebody else. So many of these cults are based on that idea that gurus who are enlightened can transmit enlightenment, that it’s this kind of vibration that lives around them. It’s a very common idea, I would contend, that people believe you can feel it, that when people go to the satsang, that they convince themselves that they’re feeling some kind of woo-woo power coming from her . It’s the idea that it can come from her that allows them to have those experiences.
Will cults ever go away? Maybe not. Maybe there’s always going to be people that need to have these experiences that need to have this kind of container for themselves, you know, to like marry their identity to the cult and then basically not have to make as many decisions because the cult decides for you. Definitely seems to be human nature for people to go for these things and you just can’t combat that, you know? That’s combating human nature.
All you can really do is say, Hey, this is just some basic human being who’s maybe not quite as cool as you think they are and here’s the reasons why. And you know, let them make the decision. But of course, you’ve got that cognitive dissonance problem where these people have their identities invested in these gurus .
You know, people, will do things for these gurus because of what they believe about them and their, need for acceptance, right? That gurus are God basically. And so if God likes you, then, right? You know, you’re, you’re ahead in life . And when you tell them, no, this guru is a real creep behind the scenes and that person goes into this dissonance mode and, and they’re like, Oh, that’s bullshit. She’s crazy. And the author of that book or expose or whatever, so it doesn’t necessarily save people from the cult . Maybe it saves a couple from going in the cult though and that would be a good thing.
I’m just some dude who thinks he knows though. So, you know, again, you just you have your own feeling about it. Like I said, the whole cult thing, it helps so many people … There’s no stamping it out, you know? There’s just providing educational materials in the form of opinions in my case you know and people can take them or leave them
Jeremy: So, you said that a spiritual path is something that you, create it or it comes from you. You’ve also said that the devotional approach works to an extent but these guru figures, maybe there’s something dangerous about that. Or maybe there’s something distasteful about people centering a religious order around themselves or presenting themselves as special . Do you think there is, a possibility of being able to, I guess, create your own devotional path, but strip it away of all the guru stuff? Maybe like you keep the theatricality and stuff like that, but without centering, another person.
Is there a way to get the cheese from the mouse trap without getting squished?
Jody: Absolutely. It has nothing to do with the person. Right. So you have Amma ji and you have all these devotees that believe she’s God. you know, they have a particular set of ideas about what she must be like as a person. And just by that alone, they develop their own sense of devotion and have their own devotional experience with their idea of Amma. It doesn’t have to be a living person. It can be a Hindu deity, it could be something you made up, really. You could believe that the spirit of God lives in your cat and worship your cat. If you’re sincere about it, I think there can be a positive effect and I couldn’t explain why really , except from my own personal experience, you know, having this idea of the Hindu goddess Kali, borrowing that from the spiritual orgs I belonged to and my own research and using that as a kinda intra-reality symbol. That’s not really a good word for it.
Just basically, you know, there’s me and there’s the universe, right? And the universe is Kali, and there’s a relationship there. I mean, this might sound a little wacky, but maybe it is, but there’s a sense of relationship there. And I think that is what a devotional relationship is. And it doesn’t have to be with Kali. It can be with anyone or, you know, any idea that works for you to represent the universe. It could be an African god or an African goddess or Celtic or… Whatever. It can be Jesus Christ. I mean, it’s really up to you. And, you know, you can be agnostic and have this approach, I think.
All of these systems, all of them, they work cause you believe in them. But it’s not required. It’s not something that you have to do, I think. I think the thing you kind of have to do is some kind of simple meditation. I think that’s pretty important. And not obsessively, but, fairly regularly.
But then again, you know, there’s people that say they didn’t really meditate a lot in suddenly developed this attentional skill. So I guess it’s hard to say. To me, it makes sense that simple meditation is an important factor.
I really do believe that, you know, we have our own way to this, that, that we construct our own ways. We have a an array of ideas at our disposal. And, you know, most people just buy into one set of those ideas and they all kind of believe in those idea march step, and that’s organized religion. And then you have the Wiccans, let’s say. And so they have a, you know, a smaller, well, a smaller population, but a certain set of ideas about what constitutes that and, and they all subscribe to that, right? But all those people subscribe to that. They all have their own gods and goddesses that they’re into and their own little sort of ideas about how things work and the other realms or, you know, whatever ideas they’re working with. So I think it’s always gonna be personal. And I think that you can make it completely personal, that you can just cut and paste, really cut and paste spiritual ideology. I think that’s a real thing.
It’s powered by your sincerity. You know, you really have to go for it. I mean, you really have to believe it kinda, you know? It has to be coming from within, I guess to be totally cliche. It’s like an expression, I guess, from your unconscious. I mean, a lot of what we’re talking about is, I think really involves the unconscious, and you could almost frame it as a relationship with your own unconscious. I mean, it’s kind of how we arise, you know, but we can never really know what’s happening down there. You know, you can have ideas. But at least according to what I’ve read about neuroscience, we have no access to that but with this kind of devotional idea, the simple Bhakti, you’re kind of getting in touch.
I don’t know. I feel like it’s worked that way for me. I feel like it works that way for a lot of my friends. and I would say it works that way for a lot of people generally, even though what they’re believing can be totally different. It’s not what you believe is how you believe it.
You kind of make it up. You know, even when you’re buying in from a different religion, you’re still having to put it together in your head and make that the way you see the world. You really can make it up if you want.
And again, it’s like not necessary at all. I mean, I think some people just don’t feel they need to have this sense of relationship with the universe. And I think that’s fine. Rarely. but I know in my case it’s been helpful. I would say generally, overall, and you know, I believe that’s true for most people, that’s why they do it.
In a way it can be helpful because it distracts you from the idea of enlightenment. I think there’s value in that really, because even if you can put your head free of all the ideas about what enlightenment is, there still has to be that moment of recognition, you know, that that moment when your attention kind of grabs it. Boom! You know, think of, you’re, you’re looking at a, at a tree and there’s a moth on the bark of that tree and it’s really perfectly camouflaged to the bark. You look at it, you don’t see it because it. It has really effective camouflage, but when the mouth moves, you see it. I think that that’s a very important kind of beginning. It’s something that’s aided by simple meditation and it’s something by aided by not constantly trying to see it. There’s maybe a spontaneity that needs to happen the kind of obsessive seeker is preventing because there’s such and obsession. I’m, and I’ll say for myself personally, it was kind of an accidental thing. And I’ll say that other people I know there’s you know, some continuity there that a lot of times it’s kind of accidental. It isn’t like you drove yourself up to this attentional scale. It’s like suddenly it’s just, ah, you know, I,
I can remember this time I used LSD — this is back in the 80s — and I was sitting in a jacuzzi by myself and looking at the water and there was a, uh, pattern in the water. And you know how hot water makes the kind of patterning kind of, you know? I guess it’s a convection, something in the water is optical. You can see it. And I was looking at it and I was thinking, you know what? There’s something here. There’s something here. And I just can’t put my finger on it. And many years later when I was able to recognize that non-conceptual aspect in awareness, I remembered that I saw it in the jacuzzi, but I didn’t know what it was.
A few weeks before that moment, I was in therapy. I had a really great therapist, he was my Jungian psychology professor in college. He was the guy that pointed it out to me. We had a psychosomatic therapy where he would say, how does that feel? How does that feel? We talk about something, how does it feel? And I’ve been doing it for years with them.
We got to a point and he said, “How do you feel?” I said, you know what? I don’t really know. I can’t really describe this. You know, there’s something here, but I can’t really describe it. And he goes, that’s it. That’s the self. He got pretty excited about it. And I’m like, what are you talking about, dude? This is nothing, you know, this is just what it is. It’s nothing. At the time, I was under the influence of the idea that it was a big deal. And then I had a dream, and et cetera, et cetera.
The moment that I’ve had that first recognition, I was waiting to get sushi with my friend. And, I was kinda connecting what he’d said with the dream and what had happened when he told me that, you know, I was seeing something. It all came together and I had that recognition and then it, like, it was established, you know? I didn’t say anything to my friend because I thought he’s not going to believe me, you know, there’s no way this guy’s going to believe me. But, yeah, it just basically became a feature of my attention at that point.
It’s always there. You know? It’s always there. It’s something you notice because it’s always been there and, and I think that’s such a critical idea. It’s not somewhere else. You don’t have to get yourself to a higher vibration, et cetera, et cetera. It’s just BOOM! Always right in front of you. And it really doesn’t matter whether you see it or not, you know, you can know that it’s there and you can meditate and you’re like 99.9% of the way there if you do those two things. It’s an immediate thing.
You know, a lot of people go on these round the world trips to find what’s under their pillow.
Jeremy: Do you think the ’round, the world trips are still helpful, even if it’s just the coming back and seeing what’s under your pillow that gets you there?
Jody: You know, I think. Maybe they’re necessary. And then I get told that by people to like, “Oh, it was just their karma”, or, you know, “it was the journey they had to go on.” I’m sort of trying to, you know, interfere with that, and maybe they’re right. I don’t know.
To me it just seems that it’s just a much more direct part of the human experience than it’s sort of framed within . It’s framed within these exotic and mystical and magical and fantastic terms when it’s really just down, dirty and ordinary.
Taking that mystique out of it makes it hard to sell . I mean, that’s part of my problem with the gurus is, you know, what they say becomes a function of what sells rather than good information about it. So people looking for happiness are told that, “Oh, it’s the source of all happiness” and “you won’t be yourself anymore” and “you’ll feel that you’re everyone” and, you know, expectation, idea after expectation and idea that just getting in the way, that just become distractions.
it’s just a lot easier and more simple than it’s been made out to be through its introduction into Western culture by Hinduism and Buddhism, et cetera. That’s all that, all that stuff, you know, thousands of years worth of it, it all points to this simple neuro phenomenology. It’s your attention sees your awareness in it’s non-conceptual state, which exists along with your attention, and it’s conceptual state. Right? Right now, this whole conversation has been happening within awareness in its conceptual condition. But simultaneous to that at all times in every person it’s this non-conceptual aspect of it. The trick is the recognition of that. And I think the solution that, the way to perform that trick is the simple meditation. And then maybe not thinking about it so much. You know, maybe leaving the idea of coming to enlightenment and concentrating more on having a good relationship with the universe, your family, the world at large, et cetera.
That I think that, you know, a lot of people, they’re just on a tear to get enlightened. I don’t really think it helps. And I might be wrong about that, but, but I think it’s just something so much more fundamental to the human existence than it gets credit for
Jeremy: I want to come back to something you said earlier about the unconscious . I had a Jung fanboy phase back in the day. You said a therapist you had was Jungian in orientation, if I remember correctly.
What is the role of the unconscious in any of this? does paying attention to dreams help or synchronicities or any of that kind of thing?
I guess I’m just trying to feel out what the role of the unconscious is in spiritual path.
Jody: Those are good questions. Well, I think. My decision to be a Kali devotee was made unconsciously, that it was something that expressed itself through me. I became exposed to the culture, to the iconography, and immediately fell in love with it, basically. You know, it was very natural for me to happen. So I think it has a role, but I think that maybe you just can never really know about it. I’m not sure
To be honest, I don’t think about the unconscious that much. And, and I think the reason is that is that, you know, you can’t think about it. It’s just nothing to think about. It’s there, of course, and I think it’s the controller of behavior, ultimately, I would argue an expertly about it.
It’s everything. Really, the unconscious is everything But, but you can’t have insight about it. It’s just the black hole basically. And, but you can give it a face, I think. And that’s what devotional spirituality is really is. And giving it a personality, an image, a body, a way of relating to it.
And then that works or can work, I think. I think the unconscious, to be honest, now that I think about it, you know, has a lot to do with it really. I mean, it depends on what your interpretation is, right? So if you believed in God and you know this universal spirit that actually exists, well then that’s who your relationship is with, and nobody can tell you otherwise, really. But if you’re more biological in your perspective, then it’s kind of relationship with your unconscious. And that’s how we describe it. And maybe that person could describe the person that believes in God as really being in a relationship with their unconscious. But, you know, you can’t really know. It’s that whole idea of this God really exists. You can’t really know. but you do know about the idea of God that exists and all the effects that it has, good and bad.
Jeremy: Do you think there’s anything to be gained by paying attention to dreams or regarding them as emissaries of the unconscious to any degree?
Jody: You know, there must be, I think. But it hasn’t really been, well, I mean, I’ve had one numinous dream that was a direct catalyst. You know, when the first recognition came of awareness, that’s not conceptual. there was a dream involved really. I was kind of floating in the sky above this little rave in the woods. and the way my therapist interpreted it, something clicked in me. So, yeah, I’m going to have to say dreams can be really important, but I’ve never been like a student of my dream so much. But I think, yeah, for other people, like, there’s somebody on Twitter that I really respect and he talks about lucid dreaming and, you know, all the great things that can happen when you can control your dreams and you can live in the dream world. But I’ve never somebody that went there did that really.
Although I will say, you know, hypnagogic state, right when you’re falling asleep, it could be a lot of kind of weirdness that happens in that moment that’s interesting. But again, I, you know. I think you just have to give credit to the unconscious for it. You know, there’s like this little bubbling up that happens in a way it seems. I don’t know if that’s really true and that’s really what’s happening, but that’s, that’s how it seems in a way but it’s pretty non-sequitur stuff, you know, it isn’t like secrets of the universe or anything like that. It’s just kind of random stuff, I don’t know if there’s a lot of information there. In my own personal experience,
Jeremy: What was uh… Burnt almonds? Who was it that said that the secret was burnt almonds? Um, shoot, nevermind. Maybe my unconscious will remind me what reference I’m trying to make.
Jody: It’s there. It’s probably there.
Jeremy: It’s there somewhere. Oh boy.
Closing
That’s it for part 1. Don’t miss part 2. Jody gets personal about his history with gurus. We’ll talk about the significance of significance, the red herring of ego dissolution, magick, imaginal spirituality, psychedelics, Jody’s path to realization, Oprah, the Aquarian Age, climate change anxiety, The Church of the Subgenius, and burnt almonds: the secret of life, the universe, and everything.
Music by Martin H Emes plus “Soveja” by Minus (CC BY-SA 3.0 RO) and “Cycles” by Density & Time.